20 July 1881 and recalled 21 July 1881
Robert Alexander sworn and examined.
12995. By the Commission.—What are you?—A mounted constable.
12996. Were you one of the party that was stationed in Sherritt’s hut at the time of the murder of Sherritt?—Yes.
12997. Have you any reason to believe from what you learnt or heard that it was known you were in the hut?—I believe it was known.
12998. Do you think, from circumstances that came under your own notice, that it was possible that the outlaws had full knowledge of your being there?—Well, I think they must have.
12999. You received provisions regularly?—Yes.
13000. And they came during the day?—Yes, we usually brought the provisions to the hut.
13001. Who usually brought the provisions to the hut?—They came—I do not know the name of the party—they came by a spring cart. I think Mr. Reynolds of Beechworth brought them.
13002. Then, if it was your opinion that it was known you were there, you might expect to be attacked at any time?—Yes.
13003. At the time that Sherritt was shot was there any length of time between the first notice that Sherritt got of the presence of the outlaws and the time he was shot?—I do not quite understand you.
13004. He was asked to open the door?—Yes.
13005. How soon after that was it he was shot?—About a minute.
13006. You had all gone into the inner room to escape notice?—There were three, Armstrong, Dowling and I in the inner room, and Duross in the sitting room. As soon as Sherritt spoke to this man at the door Duross came into the room where we were.
13007. Could he be seen from the outside going in?—Oh, yes, he could.
13008. There has been a good deal said about your conduct under the circumstances. Did you consider if any of you came out that you would be liable to be shot on the instant?—Yes, I think we would have all been shot.
13009. Did you understand that the parties outside were near the premises?—Yes, when Mrs. Sherritt went outside the house they got close to the house, and when she came inside they kept away from the house. It was by the sound of voices that I judged.
13010. Had you the impression that they had full control over the house from the front door and back?—Yes.
13011. Were the doors wide open?—About half open. I have a plan—[producing the same]. 13012. You have been thinking over this a good deal—do you think if you were in the same position again that you would be justified in doing as you did?—It would be according to who would be in charge—according to the person in charge I would act.
13013. Would you have gone out if you had been asked to go?—Yes, I said I would go.
13014. Armstrong was in charge?—Yes.
13015. Did Armstrong consider, when you spoke of it, that you would be running an imminent risk of losing your life?—I believe he did.
13016. Do you remember?—He said the party was too small, and if we kept our ground as we were we would do very well.
13017. Did the outlaws fire at the house?—Yes.
13018. Do you know how the house was built?—Weatherboards, lined with saplings; the saplings were about a foot apart, the interval between was filled up with clay; the weatherboards were overlapped outside; the weatherboards were nailed to the saplings inside across—it was that way all round.
13019. Then a bullet would hardly penetrate?—Three bullets went through the back wall of the bedroom, and one through the front wall; it went right through the boards. There were four or five hit the knots on the boards, and did not go through.
13020. Could you not at any time have got into the sitting room so as to put the fire out and the light—if you had made a rush, would they have been able to shoot you in the sitting room?—The log was burning, and the fire was a very large one; it would not have been possible to put it out at all, and there was a candle-light on the table, and one of the men was right opposite the front door, and one opposite the back.
13021. How is it you did not go out at all during the morning?—We heard voices on to daybreak almost; there were parties walking about; there must have been above a dozen or more, to my reckoning, by the sound of the voices, and walking about. I was quite willing to go out if Armstrong and the others would have, but they would not. I told Armstrong that Mr. Hare would be wild if we did not get the men, and he said we would do very well as we were; and I thought, as he was in charge, I would be wrong in going against what he said.
13022. One of you got on a bag, and shut the front door—could you not have done that earlier in the night?—Armstrong shut both doors by pushing them to with his breech-loader.
13023. Would that not enable him to get outside the bedroom any time during the night?—The doors were put to and opened again about half.
13024. Would you have been in any better position if you had got into that other room?—Well, I do not think we could have been in a better position, because there was a window in each room. We would have been in the same position as in the bedroom.
13025. You did not fire any shot at all from the inside?—No; Armstrong said not, lest we should shoot some civilians. I got on a box behind the partition wall, and told him I could get a shot at the man at the back, and he said not to fire, for fear of hitting any civilians. We had breech-loading shdt s it was no use trying to fire through; there were no rifles.
13026. Have you thought since how, if you were in the same position, you could have done better?—Yes, if the man in charge acted along with me, I would act better—I still am of that opinion.
13027. You think, if you had all acted together, you would all have rushed out?—I would have been willing to do anything, but the others would not work, and I did not like to go against the man in charge of me.
13028. What was the nature of the ground behind the house; was it an old diggings?—On the left it was diggers’ holes, at the back it was scrubby, and at the right it was scrubby and diggers’ holes; and there is a water-channel right before the door, perhaps two to three feet deep.
13029. Then any one outside had good cover?—Very good cover.
13030. If you had gone out in the dark—made a rush out—do not you think you would have had an equal chance with the outlaws?—Once we got outside the door we would have been right, and would have had as good a chance; but the other men were not willing to go out, Armstrong especially. I spoke to him several times during the night about it, and he always put me off, and said we could do nothing—the party was too small. I said Mr. Hare would be wild.
13031. Why did you think it advisable to send by a Chinaman instead of by yourselves?—It was Armstrong thought of that. He said, “Boys, do not separate, because they stopped so long at Euroa and Jerilderie, they will be bound not to give in to us yet.” He thought they were close handy. This is the statement I made myself of the whole case—[handing in a written paper].
13032. Then you consider it likely the Kellys must have known you were in the hut?—Yes, I think so, because Byrne’s brother used to come round the back.
13033. Do you remember making any report upon the proceedings that occurred there?—I do.
13034. You were called upon?—Yes, I remember making some short report.
13035. Did you make one?—I did.
13036. Was it accepted?—I believe it was, for I had not it returned to me.
13037. Do you remember Mr. Hare coming out one time to the hut?—I do.
13038. Did he find you all in the hut, or were you watching?—No; Duross, I, and Mrs. Sherritt were in the hut; the others were out with Sherritt getting firewood.
13039. Was it suggested to you by any one that you should go away as fast as possible and report you were watching the hut—that is, Byrne’s hut?—No; Detective Ward came into the hut and said, Hare is outside, say they are gone down to watch Byrne’s.” That meant the others, Armstrong and Dowling and Sherritt, I understood.
13040. And they in the meantime had not gone?—They were out cutting firewood in the bush.
13041. What did you do?—Mr. Hare came in and Duross, and he had some conversation, and during the time they were talking Mrs. Sherritt came out to where I was, and then went to where the men were cutting wood. After a few minutes Mr. Hare called me in and asked me if I had not gone to watch Byrne’s, and I told him I always went with the others. I did not hear the conversation he had with Duross.
13042. You did not say yourself that the others had gone down to watch the hut?—No.
13043. Did Mr. Hare ask you where the others were?—No, he only asked me why I had not gone down, and I said that I always went with the others. 13044. Would you lead him to understand by that that the others had not gone?—Yes, I would.
13045. Did the others go immediately and get down there before Mr. Hare?—I understand so. Mr. Hare and Duross and I went down, and we had great trouble in finding the way. He asked the best way to go; I said, “By the foot-bridge behind Byrne’s, or the bridge by Julien’s;” and he said, “We will go by Byrne’s;” and when I had gone some part of the way, he asked my opinion of Sherritt, and I said I thought he was true sometimes and sometimes not, by his conversation. He said then it was too light to go by the foot-bridge, that some one would see us, and I said, “Sherritt sometimes says to cross the creek,” and we went down to the creek and got across; there was no track; it was all across the bush. I had great difficulty in finding my way. I went away some distance and got to the track by the road, and went down 150 yards and saw Byrne’s a little to the left, and I found Sherritt, Armstrong, and Dowling there, and I had no more conversation with Mr. Hare.
13046. Then they had arrived on the ground before you?—Yes.
13047. How long did it take you in going?—I daresay an hour, because it is about two miles, and there was no track, and I had in consequence great difficulty in finding my way; in fact I told Mr. Hare I did not think I could find my way that way.
13048. Did Mr. Hare go away with the impression that those men were watching?—I could not say, because he spoke to Armstrong.
13049. Then, if he spoke to Armstrong and he did not tell him that they had been there, Mr. Hare must naturally have gone away believing that they had been there?—I could not say what Armstrong told him—I did not hear the conversation. I know Duross, after he had gone, said he was sorry he told him the men had gone. I said he was foolish to do it for the sake of Ward or anybody.
13050. Did he say who told him to inform?—He said Detective Ward. Of course Duross wanted me to say so, and I said, “No, I do not do that for any person.”
13051. If you had been doing your duty you would have been down at the house watching at that particular time?—No, it was just a little after eight then, and we never went down till about eight o’clock.
13052. Why should you see Mr. Hare when you were not expected to be there?—It was on account of the others—Armstrong went down. I always went when he went down.
13053. Were you under the impression that Sherritt knew that the outlaws were about at the time; after the affair was all over, do you think that Sherritt was false, and knew they were there all the time?—I do; because always, when going to Byrne’s, he carried a towel in his hand, and I said to Dowling, “That must be a signal he has got,” and we did not like to mention it to him; he always was swinging this about going forward in the bush.
13054. Did he ever tell you the outlaws knew where you were?—No, he never mentioned that. Byrne’s brother, coming from school, used to come at the back opposite the house, and make observations of the police; and Paddy Byrne, the other brother, stopped in front of the house, and would stop talking to any person.
13055—6. That would lead you to the impression that they were watching you?—Yes, I believe they knew we were there.
13057. Why, if Sherritt was working with the outlaws, did they shoot him?—I could not form an opinion on that; but I understand there was a party came up about a month before that, and Sherritt was among them, and they came on the ranges near Byrne’s; and Sherritt made the remark to Constable Arthur—he said he was done now, it was all up with him now after the party coming up—the party of police.
13058. What did Arthur understand him to mean by that?—That the Byrnes had seen him there, and they would lay the outlaws on to him.
13059. You may read your report;—[The witness read as follows:]—“I arrived in Wangaratta about 4th of November 1878; was one of Inspector B. Smith’s search party.”
13060. Were you out with Mr. Smith when he was out on the Warby Ranges?—Yes, I was.
13061. Did you follow up tracks then?—We did. We came on some tracks of horses; we followed them up to a gully near Mr. Newcombe’s—the black boys lost them there, it coming on dark. We stopped at Mr. Newcombe’s that night, and the party came into Wangaratta the next day, and never went back to search for the tracks.
13062. Were you not with the party that went out the second time to get on that track?—I do not remember.
13063. Were you with the party that found the lost horse?—Yes; I started with the first party—about eleven of us altogether.
13064. How long did you follow those tracks up?—I think they were followed up for two or three days.
13065. Were you allowed to remain out on the track to commence early in the morning?—No; we always came into Wangaratta every evening.
13066. How far away were you?—It might be ten or twelve miles.
13067. Then you rode that distance, and back the next morning, to get to the same point?—Yes.
13068. Did you get out as early as you arranged?—No; he always woke us early, and kept us waiting for two or three hours. We would be up at four or five, and Mr. Smith would not start till eight or nine in the morning.
13069. Was he called?—Yes, some man called him. Johnson was senior man in the party.
13070. Do you know whether Johnson called him or not?—I could not say for certain. We all clubbed together, and told him one day it was no use going with him; we said we had better go home. I think Johnson and Constable Couch were spokesmen.
13071. And you all led him to understand that he was not leading you after the Kellys, as he said?—We had to get up at four, or five, or six, and we would not start till eight or nine, waiting for him.
13072. Did you come close upon the tracks at any time—where you say the black boys lost it—did you come to the scrub where they were afraid to enter?—No; we came down to this gully, and the black boys got on their knees, and got their revolvers out. They would not go before us; we had always to go beside them—that was in the gully by Newcombe’s. That was the last of the tracks. 13073. Did you continue to follow them yourselves?—The black boys lost them at the gully by the sheep tracks, and, as it came on evening, Mr. Smith said we had better stop at Newcombe’s station, that was about half a mile from the gully.
13074. Did you go for the tracks next morning?—No, we went back to Wangaratta. I cannot remember the route exactly.
13075. Do you think you could have followed the tracks yourself?—A flock of sheep had passed over. I do not know what we could have done the next day, but in the evening we could see them, for they were quite fresh; but the black boys were awfully frightened. I was told since that the Kellys were not a mile off at the time; in fact, Newcombe told me himself that they were in the ranges at that time.
13076. Did he tell you that night?—No. Ned Kelly also told a party that he saw us there, and that he would have killed four of the party if each of the others would take two of us.
13077. What condition was the horse in that was picked up?—Its feet were very sore, all cut with stones, bleeding.
13078. All the appearance of being recently left behind?—Yes.
13079. What officers were with you when you left the tracks that night?—Inspector Brook Smith was in charge, Senior-Constable Johnston, and other constables.
13080. Were there any other officers with you?—No.
13081. Was Sergeant Steele at Wangaratta at that time?—I could not say.
13082. You had better go on reading?—“Until June 1879; was then ordered on transfer to Milawa; while there assisted in guarding Oxley bank and regular police duty. In April 1880 was ordered on transfer to Beechworth. About the 3rd of June was sent to Aaron Sherritt’s house, Sebastopol, with three other constables, for the purpose of watching Mrs. Byrne’s house, in case the outlaws should come there. My orders were if Byrne, the outlaw, should come alone to rush him, secure him, so that he could make no noise, and bring him into Beechworth; if the four should come, to shoot Ned Kelly by all means. Remember Superintendent Hare and Detective Ward’s visit to Aaron Sherritt’s house on the 19th of June 1880, about eight o’clock in the evening. Detective Ward came inside; speaking in a whispering manner said that Mr. Hare was outside, and for us to say that they were gone to watch Byrne’s. Presently Mr. Hare came inside; while he and Constable Duross were talking, Mrs. Sherritt came out and went towards where Sherritt and the others were cutting firewood in the bush. Did not hear the conversation between Mr. Hare and Constable Duross. Shortly after I was called inside, Mr. Hare asked me why I had not gone to watch Byrne’s; said, ‘I always go with the others.’ ‘What way did we generally go?’ Said, ‘Sherritt leads the way across a creek and through the bush.’ ‘And could I take him to where we were accustomed to watch?‘ Said, ‘I could take him two ways, one way by a bridge near Julian’s, the other by a foot-bridge just behind Byrne’s house.’ Mr. Hare said, ‘We will go by the foot-bridge.’ We started, I leading the way, Mr. Hare and Constable Duross coming behind. When we had gone some distance from Sherritt’s house, Mr. Hare asked me if Sherritt was true to us. Said, ‘Sometimes I thought he was; again, judging by his conversation, I thought different.’ When we had gone a little further, Mr. Hare said, ‘We cannot go by the foot-bridge, it is too light, some one will see us.’ I said, ‘The creek is close by.’ Waded across, found very great difficulty in leading tile way, as there was no track. Did not say to Mr. Hare that I knew or could take him this way; still I was determined to do the best under the circumstances. Came near a hut, saw a light in it, stopped, and said, ‘We had better go round by the back.’ Led the way until I came to a track going towards the right; led on down this track about 150 yards; could then see, by the diggings close by, Mrs. Byrne’s house was to the left. Came back along this track a short distance, then crossed over to where Sherritt and we ourselves used to watch, but found Armstrong, Dowling, and Sherritt were already there. I reckon the distance from Sherritt’s house to Byrne’s about two miles. After Mr. Hare had gone away, Duross spoke about having told Mr. Hare that the others had gone to watch Byrne’s. I said he was very foolish to say so for the sake of Ward or any one else. Remember the 26th of June 1880. I was in Sherritt’s house that evening, having just had tea. Was in the bedroom with Constables Armstrong and Dowling; Armstrong, having his blanket spread over Sherritt’s bed, had lain down; I and Dowling, having our blankets spread on the floor, were lain down also. Mrs. Barry, Mrs. Sherritt, and Sherritt himself were about having their tea in the sitting-room; Constable Duross was there also. Presently some one rapped at the back door, said, ‘Aaron, I have lost my way’; the voice seemed to me like a German’s. Sherritt did not seem in a hurry going to the door, for Mrs. Sherritt said, ‘Are you not going to show the man the way?’ Heard Sherritt walk towards the door. Duross came into the room where we were, and let down the calico screen attached above the door. Heard Sherritt and the German talking at the door, but did not take particular notice what they were saying. Presently a shot was fired, then another immediately after, from towards the back door. I sprang up, pulled the screen aside, saw the women jumping about and screaming; thought a revolver had fallen accidentally and gone off, frightening them, until Mrs. Barry sang out, ‘Joe, do not shoot me’; rushed back for the breech-loader, which I had left standing against the wall behind me along with my ammunition; the ammunition having been misplaced by some of the others in their hurry caused me about a minute’s delay searching for it. Heard this person say, ‘I will not shoot you, Mrs. Barry; open that door.’ Got up on a bag behind the partition wall (it was as high as the wall-plate and made of boards), in a position so that I could fire over it. Mrs. Barry and Mrs. Sherritt were both outside. Saw both doors were about half open, and they opened backwards towards the partition wall, so that I could not get a glimpse outside. There was also a log burning in the fireplace and a candle alight on the table. Heard this person talking to the women outside. Presently this person sang out, ‘Look out for that window in front.’ Some person in front answered, ‘All right’; there was a window in front side of bed room and also one in sitting-room, but neither of those two persons were in line with me and either of the doors. The walls were composed of weatherboards, overlapped and lined with saplings about the thickness of one’s arm, might be six inches apart, the space between each filled up with clay; the roof was shingles. I said to Armstrong, ‘I cannot get a shot at that fellow,’ might shoot some of the civilians; then watched for an opportunity if this person in front should come in line with me and the front door, as I heard the women at the back of the house. Presently this person at the back said, ‘If he does not come out, I will riddle the house.’ Mrs. Sherritt came in two or three times; wanted Duross to go outside. The last time she came inside said, in a loud tone of voice, he was wanted outside, then, in a low tone, for him not to go out. Heard a whistle and the words, ‘I will soon make you come out’; some shots were fired at the same time. This person said, ‘You must be a b—— c—— to guard yourself with a woman.’ I spoke:, to Armstrong that, if possible, we might be able to do something. Dowling said to keep quiet and not be talking—that they might hear us outside. Armstrong asked each of us if we would go outside; I and Dowling answered yes, but I could not hear what Duross said, for he was sitting at the end of the room (see form attached). I was sitting at right side of door, guarding front sitting-room door; Armstrong was lying on his chest guarding back sitting-room door; Dowling was in a similar position. Armstrong said, ‘We will wait for a better chance.’ I said to Armstrong, ‘Mr. Hare will be wild with us if we do not get a man’ (an outlaw). Armstrong made no direct reply just then, but frequently said our party was too small—if we kept our ground we would do very well. During this time, Mrs. Barry came inside two or three times, wanted Mrs. Sherritt to come outside; heard Mrs. Barry ask this person not to burn the house; the last time she came in Dowling advised her to go under the bed for safety. Presently this person sang out, ‘Come out, I will shoot you down like b—— dogs, I have plenty of ammunition.’ Armstrong said, ‘Will we surrender? boys, we will all die together.’ To my reckoning it would be between seven and eight o’clock then. During all this time I had no conversation with the women, expected to see the house in flames every minute, heard persons talking outside, thought the four outlaws were there and some of their friends also; saw Armstrong shut both doors by pushing them to with his breech-loader, the candle having burned out itself. I spoke to Mrs. Barry, she said, ‘Poor Aaron was shot.’ I did not think he was dead until then, thought he was pretending for fear they would shoot him. Mrs. Sherritt did not answer for some time. Still heard parties about from then until dawn. I and Armstrong wrapped the dead body in some blankets. When day was breaking, I went outside, saw a few branches of trees laid against one end of the house, but were too green to burn; also a small cask had been broken up and laid against front side of the house, but it was too damp to burn. Saw men’s tracks about and also at a tree on the road side; saw mark of a bullet through front wall of bedroom, about two feet and a half from the ground; three or four had gone through back wall of bedroom, others having hit knots in the boards glanced off; one right through both doors. Armstrong said ‘Boys, we will not separate, for they having stopped so long at Euroa and so long at Jerilderie, they are bound not to give in to us.’ Shortly after, a Chinaman happened to pass by, was called inside. Armstrong gave him some money if he would take a note to Mr. O’Donoghue, schoolmaster, at the Woolshed. Mr. O’Donohue came, and said he would go to Beechworth. About half-an-hour he came back again, said his wife would not allow him to go, or something to that effect. Shortly after another person was asked if he would go to Beechworth, he said ho would go by Wooragee. Armstrong gave him a note for Beechworth police, and he went away. Heard some of the women say there might be poison in the articles on the table (the table would be about a foot and a half from front door, right under the window). I am quite positive neither Joe Byrne nor Dan Kelly were inside the house during the night, nor any one else except those who were in it previously. None of the women, to my belief, were outside the house until about ten o’clock in the day. After waiting some considerable time for the Beechworth police, some others were asked if they would go, but refused; Armstrong then went himself. On that evening we were relieved by some constables from Beechworth. On Monday morning, 28th of June, was one of the Beechworth party which arrived in Glenrowan between eight and nine o’clock. On arrival at the Glenrowan railway station, Superintendent Sadleir stationed us at the Wangaratta end of Mrs. Jones’s hotel, and said to fire high, as there were civilians inside. I fired about ten shots at a port hole in back wall of kitchen and at the skillion. Was told the two outlaws were there. About half-an-hour before the fire occurred, was ordered by Senior-Constable Kelly to relieve the constable on guard in the room with ‘Ned Kelly’ and two civilians, who had been in the hotel; remained there until the proceedings closed.”
13083. By Mr. Nicolson.—The Chairman asked you a little ago what you would do under similar circumstances again. Your answer to that was not quite direct. Have you considered, suppose you were placed in the same position, what you could have done that would have been better?—I would act according to the instructions of the man in charge.
13084. You mean to say you would not act with more decision than you did on that occasion—is that what you mean?—No; I mean that I would do as I was instructed by the man in charge of me.
13085. About the Warby Ranges, you were asked about the finding of the horse?—Yes.
13086. There is one occasion you have omitted to speak about, as to which the Chairman wished, I think, an answer from you; it is about the last expedition the party were out on, when Mr. Sadleir and I accompanied you—do you not remember that?—I was not at the time in Sherritt’s hut.
13087. No, I mean at the Warby Ranges, when you found the horse?—Yes.
13088. Do you remember the party going out afterwards—about the last party that went out—and Mr. Sadleir and myself were with you?—I remember two parties—your party and Mr. Sadleir’s party—meeting in the ranges, and Sergeant Steele was there at the same time.
13089. That was what the Chairman was asking about. Will you relate to the Commission, as far as you can, what occurred?—I remember meeting you on the ranges on that day, and Sergeant Steele took his party over the ranges, and Mr. Sadleir’s party came back looking for Steele’s party, but could not find them.
13090. Were you not down following some tracks previously?—Yes, that was with Inspector Brook Smith.
13091. But with Mr. Sadleir and myself, and Steele’s party, previous to that?—I remember following a blazed track I do not remember what you speak of.
13092. Your recollection seems to be indifferent?—I do not remember. All the tracks I remember were with Mr. Brook Smith.
13093. By the Commission.—You never followed those tracks up afterwards?—No; I cannot remember it.
13094. By Mr. Nicolson.—Were you not out following tracks that morning, when Mr. Sadleir and myself were with you?—I cannot remember.
13095. There is one important thing about that hut—you say you had suspicions that your presence there was known?—Yes.
13096. What orders were given you when you were placed there about precautions against surprise, and what precautions did you take, especially after you became aware of the danger—did you appoint a guard outside, or anything?—No, there was no guard put outside.
13097. By the Commission.—Did you hear whether there were any instructions to have a man, or not have a man outside?—I never heard.
13098. By Detective Ward.—You remember the night that Mr. Hare and I went down?—Yes.
13099. Sherritt and you and Duross were in the house?—Yes.
13100. You say I spoke in a whispering voice—did I enter the house at all—who met me at the door?—You came inside the sitting-room. It was not I met you at the door; it might have been Duross, I am not certain.
13101. By the Commission.—You are certain Detective Ward was inside?—I am certain he was inside the sitting-room.
13102. By Detective Ward.—How far in did I go?—I remember the position because you shook your hands this way—[illustrating by gesture]—and said, “Say they are gone down to Byrne’s.”
13103. What did I say?—You said, “Mr. Hare is outside, say the others are gone down to Byrne’s.”
13104. Was not I asked something?—You might have spoken to Duross, that is all I heard.
13105. How could you not hear all?—I was in the inside room, in the bedroom; I just came out in time to catch that part of the conversation.
13106. Tell all the conversation you heard?—I had no conversation with you at all, but I heard you say this, and it was as much to me as Duross—it was to both of us.
13107. Mrs. Sherritt would hear all that?—She was in the sitting-room.
13108. You say you heard me say to Duross, “Say they are gone down”?—Yes.
13109. You heard nothing more?—Duross asked me to say so, and I said I would not.
13110. When did he ask you to say that?—After you had mentioned it, and I think you had gone out again.
13111. I did not say that to you?—Yes, you said it first before Duross and myself. I heard you say the words myself, and Duross he said it a second time, and I said I would not.
13112. Then when Mr. Hare asked why did not you go down, why did not you tell him then?—He asked me why I had not gone down, and I said I always went with the men.
13113. Do you know what the instructions were—what hours you were to go down, and what you were to do?—The only instructions I got were, they were given to me by Senior-Constable Mullane in the office, that was before we went at all; he said we were to go down, and if we saw Byrne to rush him to prevent him from singing out.
13114. By the Commission.—When were they supposed to be in this hut?—I would not be certain, I think it was about eight o’clock he said.
13115. By Detective Ward.—What hour did you go on every other night?—Well, we went between eight and nine generally—we never went before eight o’clock that I can remember.
13116. By the Commission.—Then Mr. Ward must have considered you were not doing your duty when he told you to give that answer to Mr. Hare?—I could not say.
13117. By Detective Ward.—Then you were no later that night than any other night?—Well, we might be a little earlier—I never took notice—I was acting under Armstrong’s instructions.
13118. Then it was about the same time?—I never took particular notice.
The witness withdrew.
Robert Alexander further examined.
13902. By the Commission.—Will you say, in a few words, what happened as to those points just referred to?—Detective Ward came to the door, pushed the door in—I did not see him, but I think so. I heard the door burst in; he spoke to Duross; I could not hear what he said to Duross; he came into the sitting-room and he put his head into the bedroom door and shook his hands and said, “Say they are gone down to watch Byrne’s.” Duross said to me afterwards to say they are gone down to watch Byrne’s. I said I would not. Mr. Hare then came in, and he and Duross had some conversation. I do not know what it was.
13903. Did you tell Mr. Hare any time during the night that the others were down there watching?—I did not. He spoke to me and asked me could I take him down. I said I could, two ways, one by a bridge near Julian’s, and another a foot-bridge behind Byrne’s. Mr. Hare said, “We will go by the foot-bridge.” We started, and when we had gone along a piece, some distance from the hotel, he asked me my opinion of Sherritt. I said I thought he was true to us, otherwise I thought not by his conversation. We went a piece further on, and Mr. Hare said it was too light to go by the bridge, “We will have to go another way.” I said, “The creek is close by.” He said, “We will go across the creek.” We got across, and on the other side it was very scrubby and full of diggers’ holes, and in the dark I had very great difficulty in finding the way; in fact I thought I would not get there at all; I only undertook to get there the other two ways—by the bridges.
13904. There is no charge of your misleading or delaying. It is supposed to be want of ability to find the place?—Yes, I could not find the place.
13905. Did you at any time, as you were going, lead Mr. Hare to suppose that those two men were watching?—The thing was never mentioned. He never asked me, and I never told him. He asked me why I had not gone down to watch, and I said I was going down with the others.
13906. Do you swear positively now that Ward told you that you must go—the others were gone?—I swear he said to say they had gone to watch Byrne’s. I lay my life on that. I took it for granted that he meant to say to Mr. Hare that they had gone to watch Byrne’s, and he said it five or six times in the hearing of us all—to Duross particularly. I was present at the time.
13907. By Detective Ward.—How is it that you say that, and you did not hear what I said at first—what did I say first to Duross?—I heard the door burst open, and then I came out into the sitting-room to see who it was.
13908. Are you certain the door was closed?—The upper hinge was broken, or the door caught in the floor, and I heard it scrape open. 13909. What did I say to Duross?—I could not hear what you said to Duross; I only heard the door open.
13910. What did he say to me?—I could not hear it; he said it in a whisper.
13911. It is a strange thing you could hear one thing and not another;—how long did this talking take altogether?—I dare say inside a minute—a very short time.
13912. When Mr. Hare distinctly states he never lost sight of me, how could I go inside and have this conversation with you and Duross?—Mr. Hare was close behind you. He might see at a distance, but you said this before he was in after you.
13913. Where were you when I went in?—In the bedroom.
13914. Did I speak to you at all?—No, you did not; you spoke in my presence.
13915. Who was present as well; was not Mrs. Sherritt in the sitting-room as well?—Yes.
13916. Would not Mrs. Sherritt hear it if I said that?—You said it in a whispering manner.
13917. How is it that you heard it then?—Because we were pretty close together; I saw the position of your hands.
13918. And you say you came to the conclusion that it was Mr. Hare they were to tell; you did not hear me say Mr. Hare?—No, you said, “Say they are gone down to watch Byrne’s,” and I took it for granted you meant Mr. Hare; and Duross wanted me to say so, and I said I would not say it.
13919. When did he say that?—After that; the time we were getting the guns before we started.
13920. You heard nothing then during this minute only my waving my hand and saying, “Say they are gone to watch Byrne’s”?—Yes, I lay my life I heard that.
13921. What motive would I have for saying that?—I could not tell.
13922. The Chairman.—You must not ask that. You must deal with matters of fact. (to Mr. Hare)—Did any of those men tell you that those men were watching?—Certainly.
13923. Did Alexander tell you?—I walked with Alexander all the way from the house.
13924. Be positive if you can?—I cannot say that positively after hearing his evidence, but without hearing his evidence I would have, because it was in my mind; but hearing him swearing that, I would not like to swear it. I thought he led me to believe, up to the time I got to the ground, that they were there.
13925. Do you remember putting the question to him why he was behind when the other men were gone?—Yes.
13926. Do you remember his reply?—No. I said it to the two of them. I do not know that he made any reply, but certainly they both led me to believe what I have said. My impression was that he, more than Duross, did so.
13927. By Detective Ward (to Mr. Hare).—Do you think, hearing the evidence you have heard, that I had time to talk all that I said just now?—I do not think I lost sight of you.
13928. By the Commission (to Mr. Hare).—Could he have said that in that whispering tone while you were on the road and have made that arrangement?—Yes, he could have done it.
13929. By Detective Ward (to Mr. Hare).—Now, admitting that all this was said, was there any blame due to me whether they were in or out?—No.
13930. Do you know of any motive that I could have in telling those men this; in putting that false oath in their mouths?—No, I expected from what Ward had told me to find them all there alone, those four men; I never thought I would have to go down to Byrne’s place. When I found this division, as I thought, of the party, then I made up my mind to see what they were doing.
13931. During the time I was employed under you at any time did you ever find me to tell an untruth, or in any way mislead you, or to in any way keep anything back?—As far as I know, not in the slightest degree. I never knew you deceive or tell me a lie or to hide anything from me, as far as I know.
13932. By the Commission (to Alexander).—Were you or any of the party out at any time during the day cutting wood or wheeling a barrowload of wood?—We were.
13933. Did you consider at the time that it would possibly be the means of disclosing the fact that you were there?—No; when we saw any person coming, we always hid. It was I and Duross and Armstrong and Dowling that used to get wood. The reason why we were so late that day Mr. Hare came was that we could not get a chance during the day.
13934. It would be quite true that you were out during the day?—Yes, Armstrong was quite agreeable we should go out.
13935. By Constable Alexander (to Mr. Hare).—What did I say to lead you to believe that the men were watching?—I do not remember the words, but you were walking beside me that night and Duross behind, and you led me to believe, by implication at any rate, that we were to find the men there.
13936. What did I say?—I cannot tell you. It is thirteen months ago, and I cannot tell what you said.
The Chairman.—Mr. Hare was led to believe at the hut that the men were there, and he was not informed to the contrary on the way down.
Mr. Hare.—That is it.
13937. By the Commission (to Alexander).—In your evidence you did not say you informed him to the contrary?—No.
The witness withdrew.
Glenrowan 